Provience
Kill!
yes indeed it is. did not put it together regarding the chevy IFS reference. thank you
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Ifs 101
- Thread starter patooyee
- Start date
yes indeed it is. did not put it together regarding the chevy IFS reference. thank you
arse_sidewards
Contrary to everything
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 71
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- 7,964
Previously in this thread I asked about the tripods and was told that the OEM housings don't have enough beef making plunging rzeppa CVs stronger.
FWIW the "heavy duty" axle shaft for my shitboxes deletes the inboard plunging CV (rzeppa) in favor of a conventional slip joint in the shaft and non-plunging CVs at both ends.
FWIW the "heavy duty" axle shaft for my shitboxes deletes the inboard plunging CV (rzeppa) in favor of a conventional slip joint in the shaft and non-plunging CVs at both ends.
I could easily see that being the case, but just as easily see how to fix it.
I would think that the 3 shafts holding the rollers would be the next weak link once you solved the housing problem.
I bet premium materials there would go a long way if dimensions couldn't be increased.
This is RCVs job, not mine. :)
Isdtbower
In for Tech
I think you would add a lot of strength to the cage with a tube around it. But not sure how much further those pinions would survive? Easy test though.
Provience
Kill!
making a physically larger joint would be pretty easy and basically leaving more mass on the "bell" would help significantly. keeping it from overheating with significant plunging might be a different story.
maybe make the outside of the bell both larger and "finned" for cooling
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
Thanks for that reference Ben, I found similar answers confirming the pivot center is centered inside the housing width, making the standard dimensions listed online a solid reference.
Another question on the day. I'm just tinkering around with upright design theory, and I'm finding in the case of 05+ super duty unit bearings, the factory rotor hat is way too deep to allow any sort of reasonable KPI while pivoting through the joint centerline. Is it standard to go with aftermarket lighter brakes not only for the reduced weight/rotating mass, but getting a shallower hat depth?
(No real rigid dimensions here, just observing stuff)
But then the WOD crane axle lightweight brake kit looks like it's got a much shallower hat
https://www.wideopendesign.com/crane-axle-front-05-super-duty-unit-bearing-wilwood-brake-kit
But the Branik setup looks like it still uses a deep hat
https://bustedknuckleoffroad.com/products/bsdbp865-or-bsdbp8170
Another question on the day. I'm just tinkering around with upright design theory, and I'm finding in the case of 05+ super duty unit bearings, the factory rotor hat is way too deep to allow any sort of reasonable KPI while pivoting through the joint centerline. Is it standard to go with aftermarket lighter brakes not only for the reduced weight/rotating mass, but getting a shallower hat depth?
(No real rigid dimensions here, just observing stuff)
But then the WOD crane axle lightweight brake kit looks like it's got a much shallower hat
https://www.wideopendesign.com/crane-axle-front-05-super-duty-unit-bearing-wilwood-brake-kit
But the Branik setup looks like it still uses a deep hat
https://bustedknuckleoffroad.com/products/bsdbp865-or-bsdbp8170
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
Oh nice, do they make one for the 05+ unit bearings? I know they specialized in 99-04 stuff for a while, but not as familiar with their 05+ offerings. Going to search a bit now
ParadisePWoffrd
Recovering Project Junkie
Maybe there isnt enough room, but could you fit the lower joint under/outside the rotor? I guess it depends on wheel size.
Going to half ton/smaller rotors would give more clearance in a wheel.
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
There aren't any half ton rotors that have a large enough hat diameter to fit on these 05+ unit bearings that I'm aware of, but always curious about new discoveries. Under/outside the rotor could make for some decent geometry, but I don't think you'd be able to build to suite it. Trying to get tabs from the bearing cup wrapped around the rotor, then getting the A arm in there, and still being able to turn 30-40 degrees sounds like it could be an insurmountable task.
You could get custom stubs cut to extend the pivot point outward for a premium, or do some custom rotor hats with aftermarket rotors that push everything back out toward the wheel mount surface. Or just go with a GM upright like these guys are exploring haha because it's all packaged already without these challenges
Don't know if this would work for you, but for my light little buggy I had planned on cutting the inner rotor surface and vents of the stock rotor off and turning the inside of the outer surface flat on my lathe to net a light, thin, unvented rotor. Basically a poor man's rotor and hat. From your pic it looks like that might give you the space you need. (This wasn't my idea, someone did it in the SD60 thread on Pirate a long time ago.)
Wilson
Newb
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2020
- Member Number
- 3068
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- 678
Your time is free, but these are what dynatrac sells for the rear of their JK “big brake” kit. It’s 14.25” OD and the allowance for the factory style parking brake should allow any UB to fit inside. Non-vented
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
Hmmm that's a pretty interesting idea, I could totally see that working. Right now I'm on a thought process of using as many unmodified off the shelf components as possible similar to yours with the chevy 3500 stuff, but realizing the Ford brakes don't cater all that well to being used on an IFS upright with the stock length stub shaft. You may really be onto something with the GM uprights.
Yeah unfortunately that would require some heavy machine work to slip over the 05+ unit bearings. the wheel flange is right around 8" in diameter so the rotor ID has got to be pretty big for these things. Definitely doable, but the first avenue is definitely more off the shelf items.
You're saying that what they sell is basically the idea I described?
I kinda keep coming back to that to. It's almost like some large company with tons of engineering resources designed a beefy knuckle specifically for heavy duty IFS applications and no matter what I come up with I can't do better. LOL.
I really wan tot use the Ford UB though. I do think it's better and has tons of aftermarket support.
Wilson
Newb
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2020
- Member Number
- 3068
- Messages
- 678
It’s a product that may yield the desired result, without a bunch of machining. I do not know if this rotor has an oem application, or if dynatrac has them made for them. I do know that they have blanks, so most any lug pattern could be drilled into them.
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
Haha so true. Yeah I like how supported the Ford stuff is and want to use it as well, but being forced into a 1k+ brake setup for use with an IFS upright is a bit of a bummer. The GM upright already having a nice off the shelf brake package along with decent stub shaft diameter has some nice appeal to it, just less support.
I kinda don't want to use ball joints either.
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
That part is easy though. Drill the ball joint holes out straight through for bolts (weld in a sleeve if you need a smaller diameter) and run a uniball with bolt. Or run one of those double ended studs that roundy rounders use for bump steer paired with a uniball. Although probably not a big enough taper diameter to match 1 ton ball joints without going custom made
Single sheer? That's not a concern?
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
It probably is a concern on the lower, but I'm constantly surprised by how many single shear uppers I see when the bolt is vertical. Although those probably are an integrated misalignment spacer with the full shank diameter of the smallest point of the misalignment. instead of just the bolt diameter within a seperate misalignment spacer. That does still bring up a worthy challenge though of double shearing the lower outer joint
vetteboy79
It's bent. #ttb
To be fair, a balljoint is single shear.
There was a pic earlier of I think Scherer's car showing a uniball with the bolt recessed into the misalignment spacer, also a single shear upper.
Right. That's my main concern with ball joints. I think if I was going to settle on single shear I would just run the Chevy knuckle with the ball joints.
Good point about Scherer though. That was a 1.5" joint though.
Isdtbower
In for Tech
No issues with a hardened single shear "stud" assembly. Reason for 1.5" uniball is for the vertical misalignment and to leave that stud thick enough to not break in single shear. A single grade 8 bolt, 3/4", has been tried and broke.
Early IFS had single 3/8" rotors to maximize the geometry (Bottom outside omni) with wide calipers. Wheels were addressed soon to make room for those calipers. Stock stuff now. ProAm and Spidertrax sold the whole package. Some may still be running the single rotor. Not a big deal for a rec wheeler.
Maybe the new Raptor will offer something for you guys. They seem to take a pretty good beating
Early IFS had single 3/8" rotors to maximize the geometry (Bottom outside omni) with wide calipers. Wheels were addressed soon to make room for those calipers. Stock stuff now. ProAm and Spidertrax sold the whole package. Some may still be running the single rotor. Not a big deal for a rec wheeler.
Maybe the new Raptor will offer something for you guys. They seem to take a pretty good beating
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AgitatedPancake
Frobot
Hmm the Raptor is a good call to research, man those things have some serious vertical seperation. That sent me down a path of checking out the raptor brake setups. Wow, completely different. Look how shallow the rotor is to the wheel mount surface, that's what we're lookin for. Then as you mentioned Ben, you need to make sure your wheels have caliper clearance because the back of the caliper sticks past the wheel mount face by a bit.
This is RPG fabricated stuff, but it looks like those might be stock rotors? That would make all the difference in the world.
https://www.rpgoffroad.com/product/rpg-knuckles-aka-spindles/
This is RPG fabricated stuff, but it looks like those might be stock rotors? That would make all the difference in the world.
https://www.rpgoffroad.com/product/rpg-knuckles-aka-spindles/
The brakes on that setup are definitely Ford. You can tell by the composite style rotor that it is an OEM part.